A Talk About Player Evaluation With Jeremy Booth
Welcome to The Baseball Awakening Podcast, where we dive into the raw, unfiltered, unsexy side of player development
Jeremy Booth – Founder and CEO of Program 15, President of Baseball Operations of THe New Balance Future Stars Series as well as Baseball Analyst and Co-Hose of Extra Bases Podcast.
On this episode, Host Geoff Rottmayer sits down with Jeremy Booth
Show Notes: In this conversation, Michael talks about:
- Talk about the eye test and what it means.
- Talk about the hit tool and what it means.
- Talk about the power tool and what it means.
- Talk about the speed tool and what it means.
- Talk about the arm tool and what it means.
- Talk about the fielding tool and what it means.
- Talk about pitching.
- Talk about evaluating makeup.
- Talk about what skills are.
- and much more.
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Geoff Rottmayer: 00:00 On today’s show. I’d bring back Jeremy boots. I got the emails from you guys and I listened to you all and you guy that the bike and Marine. Jeremy back on to talk a little more in depth about the scouting process after we just had the draft and there was some confusion among some others. So we’re excited to have Jeremy back on and hopefully clarify some things for you guys.
Intro: 00:26 Welcome to another episode of the baseball awakening podcast where we dive into the raw unfiltered unsexy side of player development. Get ready for some knowledge bombs with your host Jeff rot. Meyer
Geoff Rottmayer: 00:51 Jeremy booed that the founder and the CTO. Oh a program 15 and the president of baseball operations for the new balance baseball future star theories at well debate more analyst for CBS TV, K Joe, you 11 down in Houston at well as cohost of the extra base podcasts. Jimmied reputation for being able to recognize and uncover player potential. It built on a diverse 18 year professional baseball career as a player coach and a talent evaluator as a scout. Jeremy had consulted in the player development and scouting department for major league or organization to include the Minnesota twins, Milwaukee brewers and the Seattle Mariners where he signed players who went on to claim major exposure and professional success with a passion and a drive do that earned him the respect them amateur baseball players, evaluation and development world. Jeremy left professional baseball in 2016 the create program 15 an organization dedicated to hit vision to provide the amateur player across all economic loved one opportunity to reach their full potential through the learning development and guidance. A former MLB players scout and coaches. Jeremy, how are you sir?
Jeremy Booth: 02:20 Hey, I’m Jeff. How you doing man?
Geoff Rottmayer: 02:23 I’m doing good. And you know, listen, since I’ve had you on laugh, you know, we have the the giraffe and um, I’ve had a couple of people reach out to me, you know, and asking me if I could get you back on the show and maybe go a little more in depth. They requested that I kind of take more of a structured approach. So, you know, um, I appreciate you coming back on as I know this is a very busy time for you.
Jeremy Booth: 02:50 Oh, all good man. I love talking to you and talking to game and I thought, I thought last time we spoke was pretty good. It’s pretty organized, but yeah,
Geoff Rottmayer: 02:57 I thought though too. So, yeah. Yeah. I mean
Jeremy Booth: 03:00 we’ll see. We can keep it direct. We’ll see. We can do what they need.
Geoff Rottmayer: 03:03 All right. The, let’s just start with the eye test. What does the eye test mean and what are you guys looking for?
Jeremy Booth: 03:12 No, the eye test is probably one of the broadest terms out there, right? Cause it just says the eye. It’s very subjective. But what that really means is that means a, an appearance. It means, uh, you know how the body works. It means athletic, it means projection, it means growth, strength of life, things that say that a player at all, I don’t know, 17 or you know, Latin American 14, you know, whatever the case may be when you see them is not going to, is going to continue to grow into it. Right. It’s going to be athletic, it’s going to be durable, it’s going to be flexible. You know, we, we used words like injury prone, we use words like tight and we use words like stiff and things like that. And, and those are just, those are terms that describe, you know, how the body really works, right?
Jeremy Booth: 04:03 How each player’s body works, what, what it means to sum it up is athletic strength, life fluid, projectable. If somebody has those types of things, um, they’re, they’re passing the eye test. Uh, you know, you don’t want to see a kid who, you know, this is gonna sound bad, but that’s bad. Um, who has features that would, that would say in, in later years, it’s gonna thicken and be hard to maintain a full major league season. You want to have a certain frame on a player that says he can be durable and not get hurt and, and grow and add things to it. Right? Not something that’s all the way finished at 17 years old. So when we talk about the eye test, if that’s what you [inaudible]
Geoff Rottmayer: 04:44 right. And, and, and for the people that are listening, they’re using their experience in evaluating player in that. They’re saying, okay, I’ve seen that type before and this one worked out pretty well. And then this one didn’t work out very well.
Jeremy Booth: 05:04 Correct. That’s what it means. Yes.
Geoff Rottmayer: 05:06 So, so that’s why when you see some guys that maybe they don’t pass the eye test it because they have a feature that had the men proven to be sustainable.
Jeremy Booth: 05:20 Right. And you know what, that’s, that’s kind of born out over time too. You know what I mean? I mean, it’s not something when you say that that is, is made up yesterday, you know, that’s not round. You know, it’s so people have, there’s baseball players and athletes for, for you know, decades and decades and decades. And um, there are certain players that look a certain way and there’s other players look other ways. And if you look at the guys around me league baseball today, they get hurt a lot. Um, you know, or you don’t have body issues with strength or conditioning or things like that. There’s just certain type that comes with that. Now, it doesn’t mean that a player who a type it isn’t, uh, you know, isn’t 100% ideal, can’t play, that’s a good selection, doesn’t move on. It just means there’s, there’s kind of a checklist and that’s part of it,
Geoff Rottmayer: 06:07 right? So, so again, path experience matters. Now we have to remember that these guys are trying to find guide that they feel like can play in the big league one day and help their team win some games. All so that, yeah, I test Jeremy, I think you did a great job on that. The let, let’s jump into the tools. Um, let’s start with the hit tool. What does that consist of?
Jeremy Booth: 06:33 So the hit tool, um, you know, is, is, can be as simple and as complex as you make it. And the best part about evaluators is that everybody’s got their own lens, right? Um, when you’re talking about scouting, and I’m gonna, I will bring this back to each school. When you’re talking about Scag before you give them the tools, it’s important to remember that there’s different lenses from, uh, from, for each level there’s a, there’s an amateur lens, which is, you know, traditionally United States amateur baseball amateur lens there, which is more tool focused. And the older you get, it becomes more skill oriented, right? So what I mean is the more the older, the longer you play and the older you get, the better your skills and production needs to be. Alright. Um, things are, are that are excusable. If 15 are no longer excusable at 17, things are excusable. 17, a longer excusable at 19. Right? Because you’re getting older and older and older and that in that realm. So the lens changes a little bit on the amateur side with every passing year. Uh, there’s the international lens. We’re dealing with players who are, you know, by that we’re mostly talking Latin America. There’s international lens. We’re dealing with players who, um, you know, are younger, right? I mean, those kids were signing at 16. I see that they’re younger and um, it’s, it’s way more projection that goes into it. When you start seeing those kids at 13 or 14 years old and and with our initiatives, you know, I’m doing that now, I’ve got a Dominican, I see 13 and 14 year olds and I gotta I got a dream and project and and get them when they’re 15, 16 to come over, which a lot half is only a few months, let alone a couple of years, right? So you really have to uh, really have to dream there and use that lens. And there’s the pro lens and the pro lens is really skill-oriented. There are certain tools, which is how I’m tying that back to what you asked that need to check the box. Certain levels of tools they need to check boxes to advance into professional baseball. Once you’re in professional baseball, it becomes skill-oriented. Right? It’s different because the tools really do even out and guys with little lesser tools can be better players once you’re in professional baseball, as long as they, as long as they can execute. Okay, so back to hit. The hit tool has components. It has, you know, the ability to barrel the baseball. It has pitch recognition. It has feel to use the whole field. It has a batch speed, it has hand strength, it has, um, uh, you know, balance. Those are all components. So physical approach and mental all go into the kids’ ability to hit do you have one of the three, let’s just call it physical, right? Um, that shows you have some kind of a chance to hit, but if you don’t have the other two, eventually it’s gonna catch up to you, right? If you have pitch recognition and, and approach, but your physical tools are a little bit light, you know, those can be tightened up to a point and, and can be passable and sometimes more successful with those things. And a player who doesn’t have the, um, doesn’t have less tools and not the other, nothing happened. The other two right are the physical attributes to hit, but not the other two. But the ideal call to grail is to find all of this approach that works in all, all fields. The ability to, uh, you know, control the barrel, the ability to see the baseball. He built these control fright zones and the ability to repeat those mechanics and all those things go into something we call the hit tool.
Geoff Rottmayer: 09:48 Nice. And you know what Jeremy took the reiterate something that you said, we have the understand that when you’re 15 you can get away with more than you can when then when you’re 17 you you’re supposed to be getting better. So if you are a guy in college and you hit 1518 home runs, but you have trouble with the curve ball or you have trouble with pitch recognition that the strike against you
Jeremy Booth: 10:20 100% there’s a kid I signed in 2011 who’s currently rehabbing in Arizona with giants, but it is Michael Reed and he’s fifth rounder playing the big leagues for three clubs on walkie Atlanta and San Francisco. And you know, Michael was a kid who had tools, right? But the skills were late. And what that means is that he saw the breaking ball, but he didn’t really know how to hit it yet. Does that make sense to you? Okay. By the time he was seven a young 17 I’d tell him he was 20 he had figured out how to hit the breaking ball. So in those three years, the, the adjustment went from the scouting identification was does he see it? You could tell that he saw it by the way he took the pitches, you knew he saw it out of the hand. The question was could learn how to hit it. Yeah. And so at that point over his development, he learned how to hit the breaking ball, if that makes sense. So if you’re in college using that as an example. Yeah. At 17 he does not hit the breaking ball yet. But at 20 no, you have to let me contact. Make sense?
Geoff Rottmayer: 11:18 Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. And you know what, you know, if you’re swinging that curve ball and you could eat, like you said, you can tell if a guy’s not sleeping or while by the way, he takes just like you said, and you know what, this doesn’t help them because I had a guy reach out and he said, you know, I’ve been watching this kid. He has 17 home runs and he didn’t have a single interest and he was super confused. But then I went and watch, you know, a little bit on the thing that I could find and a theme bike. He couldn’t hit the ball.
Jeremy Booth: 11:54 You may contact, um, for a while was underrated. I can never understand why because you know, it transitions it to the other two tools are about to talk about offensively but you’d already made contact. Um, you can’t hit extend me contact and if can’t hit, you’re making a lot outs and you don’t make you make outs and you know ’em you ain’t going to get a chance to play cause the name of the game is to score runs and or prevent runs. Right. So I, you know, I, if you’d have told me to contact him and that’s we hit ability tool is, is all those things combined.
Geoff Rottmayer: 12:25 Right. And we must understand that the competition level matters as well.
Jeremy Booth: 12:32 Yeah. Because well it matters what the, it matters, what the mix of those things we discussed and matters how that comes together against that competition. Cause, um, I was a player I saw yesterday, excuse me, the example who is superior athletically to a lot of the players who’ve played against kids 16 and he had his brain had made subtle adjustments in how he was doing things to slow himself down, to play against his peers. Happens, people do it, people check out mentally a little bit cause they love the game. They don’t realize you’re doing it. Um, and he’s hustling, he’s succeeding basic seeding it correctly. Right? And so that’s part of things that guys do against competition. That’s a little bit very to their accounting level. Um, but you know, over time that has to work itself out. So we are looking at it, looking at it as how he’s going to perform in the big leagues. You’re not looking at how he’s going to perform in college because I hate to say it and it’s called baseball. As exciting as it’s become. Um, it has, and it’s not the end all be all. We’re looking at big leagues and those kids, when they get done with college, they want to go play professionally. Right. So it ties, it ties into is this gonna work? Right?
Geoff Rottmayer: 13:37 Right, right. Okay. Um, I think we are, well, you explained the hit tool pretty well. So look, jump over to uh, power. How is power evaluated?
Jeremy Booth: 13:53 All right. There’s two types of powers. Raw power and this power production. Okay. And raw power is simply how far can you get it? That’s easy. How far can you strength? Okay. And, um, with, once you check off the strike box, that’s the real, that’s the raw power, right? The one that matters, the one that that drives and runs is power production. And that is, to me, that’s a mix of things. So some people would say power production is frequency of home runs. Okay. How many home runs is he going to hit? And again, to the listeners, this is the big leagues. This is not, you get eight home runs in college or 16 home runs in high school. This is projection in the big leagues, right? So power production and several things go into that. Um, it’s not just with home runs, it’s, it’s free, it’s frequency of that. But for me, it’s extra base hits. So if I’m looking at power production, I’m talking about doubles, triples, non singles, how many, how many hard contacts for extra bases do I think this guy is wanting to get? Now that is a completely dreaming and guessing number. Okay. But, but the great isn’t, you know, so if you’re going to give a guy, let’s say six power, um, that means he’s going to hit somewhere between, you know, 19 and 25 home runs, OK. or 22 to 27, whatever your scale is, right? 19 to 25 about more about right. So if you’re gonna, if you’re going to do that, you also have to add in the extra base that’s worth it. Now, if the components are everything we talked about in the hit tool, right? But now this adds the strength into and how often is going to get to this, right? Based on his approach for people who are pull oriented, um, you’re going to get a little bit of a higher for most people. These for me, you get a little bit of a higher power grade than you do a hit grade because you’re giving up your, you know, two thirds of the field if you’re just trying to pull the baseball and, and pictures will run into a certain making mistakes in certain areas where if you’re a pool guy, you’re getting run inside enough as long as you can hit, you know, along with the boxes. Again, checked right to go and play, but it pushes you down the list. If you’re a guy that has power and shows me the ability to hit you have raw powers, doesn’t need to lead again, I’m going to believe we’re going to get to your power. So that drives both grades up. All right, those guys go ahead of people who just have raw power, right? Right. Move and just hit. So power production is the one everybody wants and that’s kind of how you get to a strength. Um, speed and all the components we talked about a combined.
Geoff Rottmayer: 16:20 Yeah. And you know what, for the people that are listening, um, on MLBTV during the drive, they have a, a, a bunch of right up non, you know, the top 200 guys that were personally drafted. And when you read through them, they were the couple of guys that they were, they were concerned that to whether they would hit it enough to tap into their power for me, you gotta you gotta hit you gotta barrel a baseball before the power tool. It realize,
Jeremy Booth: 16:51 yes you do. That’s, that’s no question. So we’ve got to get into a situation where, where those guys where if you’re, you know, you can swing all you want and swing as hard as you want, but it’s not gonna matter, um, with as much strength as you can make consistent hard contact. And that goes back to that whole hit for power. The phrase with that, it’s fit for power. It’s not power for hit, which is no difference with raw power.
Geoff Rottmayer: 17:12 All right. All right. Awesome Jeremy. So now to now we’ve covered, um, hin and we’ve covered, uh, power. Let’s jump over to speed the speed tool. How is, how he’d won evaluated on speed.
Jeremy Booth: 17:32 Um, so first of all, there’s, there’s raw, um, there’s raw speed. Okay. And raw speed is, is stuff like, you know, we’ll just use it when everybody knows it’s 60 times, you know, what is it in 69, how fast is he? Right. Um, then there’s playable speed, which is, you know, home to first right off the bat and there’s first and third and um, you know, I think, you know, the 10 and the 40 are more applicable measures for playable baseball speed based on this decision. Right? But, um, 60 is kind of the measuring stick for raw speed. Right? Um, for those of you who don’t understand the 60 or why we do it and it’s been accepted for so long, you know, I can’t answer for everybody I can answer. For me, I do it for athleticism, body control, uh, explosion, right? And durability of, of speed. And what that basically means is how fast you get to top speed and how long can you maintain it. That’s what it means. Okay. All those things come together. Show me a measure of athleticism. So at 60 shows me, okay, um, the 10 shows me how fast you get the top speed. And the 40 shows me how, you know, an applicable game measurement that is pretty playable, right? Whether it’s home to first or you know, even first 30 minutes or longer, but the births are closer to 40 yards and they are, you know, 60. So, um, that, that said, the running speed is, is essentially how you, you know, how your raw score is and there’s a playable running speed which has to do with base stealing, right? Can you still basis can you use it, um, you know, do you make contacting you down the line and you know, in four two, which is a, a plus runner for the right hand side and fourth of growth or one for left hand size plus Mark, right? You do that. Um, and then of course first, third times and everything that has to do with game applicable measurements is really how you’re graded once the raw score of do you have comes into play. Right? So, going back to those, those things we talked about, about, you know, skill, you know, checking things off with tools, raw tools, um, and those lenses, right? People will have, be able to be a 65 runner and they won’t get drafted because they can’t run still basis, right? Or they can’t get down to buy, get down the line. People can have plus raw power and not get drafted and hit, you know, 10 15 home runs in college and not get drafted because they can’t use it because the next level doesn’t project to use it. Cause it’s all for power, right? So if you’re looking at the draft and not understanding, you know, the, the science within it, this is part of it. There’s plenty of guys, I saw three guys yesterday run a six, six at 16 years old, three of them, if I don’t believe it’s gonna play, right? Nobody’s gonna play. It’s a small workout way. Yesterday. You don’t have 20 guys, right? If I don’t believe it’s going to play, it doesn’t make any sense to me to get six, six of them matter. So there’s the raw score. And then there’s the playable score and the playable scores. Everybody wants.
Geoff Rottmayer: 20:19 Okay. Yeah. You know, so not FA, not to get off topic here, but for the people that are listening, I had a gentleman email me and he then wanted the, uh, kind of the Northern States and he asked me, uh, how do you evaluate, um, athletics? CISM and, uh, you know, that’s a good question, but I, I simply said that, you know, you, you’ve got to go where the great players are at and you will see the athletics, tourism and these guys and you’ll be able to see it and then be able to go back home and compare it, compare the athletics wisdom from what you’re seeing versus that, eh, but, but you got to see it enough, you know, you got to go to spring training, you’ve got to go to big league game, you go the top high school and college of men and you’ll see the athletics that Islam, and then you just take that back home with you and then be able to compare to,
Jeremy Booth: 21:18 yeah. Yeah, that’s, I mean, but you know, again, all those things we talked about, even from the eye test right now, some of the things that I just mentioned with measurements go into athleticism.
Geoff Rottmayer: 21:27 Right. Right. But, but what I’m saying is if they’ve never seen it [inaudible] they’ve never seen a big leaguer and how athletic he is and how he moves, it’s going to be tough. But then the S the look at a kid and you know, wherever they’re from and say this is the future big leaguer.
Jeremy Booth: 21:48 Correct.
Geoff Rottmayer: 21:50 Okay. So we talked about the hit, um, we talking about power, we’re talking about speed, let’s jump over to the arm. Um, what, what do you got there?
Jeremy Booth: 22:02 So, you know, obviously raw arm strength, right? And you know, that can mean anything from, you know, a radar gun reading, um, for pitchers or, um, a radar or a throwing the ball or even now it’s a weight I’ve done reading from position players, but throwing the ball from right field in the test into the seventh row. That’s Raul, I’m sure. Okay. Um, but again, none of it matters unless it plays. So if a kid comes through or player comes through and he throws it as hard as he can and it’s, and it’s the ninth row, man, that’s great. Now can you execute it? Otherwise you’re just making errors and guys are right. Just going to keep circle on the basis. It’s the same thing with a pitcher. Pitcher can throw 95, 97 88 92 I, you know, 104 if you can’t put it in the strike zone and actually have some kind of fuel to command it, believe it or not. And I know you believe that, but some people who are listening may want it. You know, [inaudible] you know, it’s gotta be him. It’s gotta be usable 104, it doesn’t matter. So you have to look at the raw and then you’d have to take that in and, and, and put it into your lens of, is this going to be something that’s going to work? Does he repeat his, our speed underneath it, which was inaccuracy, playability cause he stayed back above the baseball when he throws his body online. Um, does he have wasted footwork and mechanics is he is something out of sync and how he’s releasing the baseball. This is our action work, which is now undervalued miking but you know, this is his arm action. We’re doing something that he’s going to get hurt. And when we have now positioned players having Tommy John surgery and uh, it’ll at rising rates. And that’s really concerning concerning if you seen as more concerning than pitchers, that tells us we’re all ready, that something is inherently wrong with how things are happening to develop players younger, which is a different topic, but it ties back into the tool of arm strength and play ability. So while arm strength and then the skill to be playable arm strength and playable arms is what you’re graded on, you know? Yeah. It’s a 70 arm, but grades other than that, it’s a five really. It’s an average arm cause that’s how it plays. Or it’s a 98 mile an hour fast ball, but it’s out of the zone at 98. So it’s an 82 in the strike zone. So it’s really an Agora fastball. You know what I’m saying? That’s, that’s kind of how you, how you look at it. Um, when you’re gleaning things out as you go further. So, uh, you know, again, for people who haven’t, who haven’t done it just on the educational side of it, you know, the raw tool was great, the playable tools were matters. And whether the people you know, sell that or tell you that or you know, it doesn’t, it doesn’t really matter what it’s gonna sound really cold. But, you know, Jeff, I think you know enough about me now to know that I’m gonna see what’s on back sales in my mind, cause I what we call it doesn’t matter what anybody thinks. Doesn’t matter what you think the right thing or the guy on the street thinks or the guy next to it doesn’t matter. You’re not this, you’re not going to change that by saying, Oh, it’s 98 deserves to play. No, he doesn’t. If it lessens 98 in the strike zone didn’t match, then he got something. Right. And then within that, just to go into the, um, to the arm strength, you’re talking about what kind of arm visits and what that means. Is it, is it a right field arm? Is it a shortstop arm? Is it, uh, does it play from behind the plate, right as it, is it, is it an arm action, it’s going to sustain a pitcher on the mound being a starter over time? Or is it something that is different that has to put him in the bullpen because of the risk on it? All of those things matter. And I think our first conversation, we talked about roles, right? Like building into roles and we talked about usable variables and it’s kinda like, it’s kind of back into that, explain what that means. So if I’m a, if I’m a pitcher and I have a 95 on basketball at 95 better work or don’t matter, and if I can do that as a starter and that bumps my value up as opposed to somebody else who has to go into the bullpen because there’s a lot of those guys. And so the answer is the arm strength. There’s not just as simple as a raw arm grade. Yes, there’s a raw arm grade. But how it really is evaluated is what it’s going to play, how it’s going to hold up and what position is going to be at, which goes into a whole other thing, which all tying together when we talk about draft profiles.
Geoff Rottmayer: 26:04 Yeah. Yeah. And you know what, for the people that are listening, again, this is not an easily, and there are a lot of things that we don’t realize that they’re looking at in terms of, and again, you know, they’re, they’re looking at number one that they think could be a big leaguer and help their team win game one day. You know, does he have the mechanic for the add the fundamental of you have the body type a, there’s a lot more to it. And then, you know, just being a guy, you know, not the radar guns that 92 and he had a ranking on him. Right. Okay. Yep. So, um, so, so we’ve, about the hit tool. We talked about the power tool. We talked about speed. Um, we talked about arm. So now, now we have fielding. So the Jeremy, what, what goes into evaluating, fielding,
Jeremy Booth: 26:57 fielding is, okay, so let’s go back all those components, right? Run speed and athleticism. And people will say that doesn’t matter, but it obviously does. Okay. Run speed, puts the athleticism, Armstrong, all of those, believe it or not going or defensive grade because it goes back to where it is, where it players going to play. Right? So you’re talking about rhythm, you’re talking about how SaaS is hands are, you’re talking about forwards, you’re talking about body life, you’re talking about range, you’re talking about, um, making the routine play at, you’re talking about instincts. All those things go into some players, defensive abilities, all of them. And you know, most people say, Oh, you know, he’s got to talk to Hans. And he thinks that he picked me, executes the play last part of it is part of it. Um, but everything else I just mentioned is our separators within that basic guys. So the first thing you look for is how do the hands work out of the feet. Word, right? Um, can you, can he pick the ball up without it, without, uh, without a hiccup he executed across. Yeah. You guys. Okay, good. Now we’ll start talking about all the other things, you know, cause he, he, he has endurance, he has explosion. He has a quick first step. He has instincts. He has, um, ability to throw from different angles. He has feel, he has athleticism. He has, uh, you know, uh, range. He has, you know, he’s a ball Hawk, different terminal, you know, things like that. Consistency and execution, right? Those are all things that go into a players field and the ability, whether or not he’s a a two or an eight and two being a no value and eight being a go lover, right? So it’s, it’s, it really depends on, on all of those factors you get the feel and the ability. And within that, with all those things considered, you should get your grade. Now this is where scouting gets at and I think that’s all of the five, right? If all five were scout issues we’re scouting gets, um, it’s interesting is because people look back that lenses comment, people have different lenses and they won’t think as advanced as as others. And part of that’s just development and part of that’s just scouting and seeing players over time to grow into what these tools actually mean. It’s not ever going to be a science where somebody wakes up and like, Oh man, I got all these different checklists or what it looks like. And I feel like in, in our society, you know, it’s the baseball community. I feel like we dumb this down a little bit. Um, and we haven’t found the players who can do these things cause we stopped teaching it. I’m not going to get, I, I have a real strong feeling of who caused that. I do. Everything has a root cause somewhere. Right. And I have a real strong feeling of who caused that. That’s not the point of the conversation. Point of the conversation is to say those things go into those tools. Now every, when you’re talking about draft position or you’re talking about why a guy selected, are you talking about why I didn’t get selected or what the future is gonna hold for a certain player. All of those five tools add into what most people have now commonly dubbed the six tool. And that’s your mental ability to process. That’s your makeup, that’s your instincts, that shore a resiliency that is your, um, cognitive ability. That is your, all those things that go on above the neck. Okay, that ties into what the six tool, what’s, how’s your head work in your head? And if you have the basic raw tool boxes checked, right, your head will get the most out of those tools through processing those tools and the skills back to our first conversation, right? And execution. And if you can tie those raw tools together with still execution, you, you have a role. And the roles are really dictated for the ease of operation. Everybody else can you play in the middle of the dining room, can’t you? And that means centerfield shortstop, catcher, if you can play in those positions, right? The pressure. And it’s because everybody’s got a hit. Everybody has got to hit, but the pressure on the bat is less because there are premium defensive positions. It’s changing some with some of the analytical shifting, right? It’s changing a little bit with some of those things because people are, are, are, you know, seeing a generation of hitters now who is so poor power oriented that they’re able to stack up the fielders on the other side of the, of, of, you know, on the poor side of the second basin and it changes the need for range because we’re only playing on one side of the field. Right. However, we have seen recently a more more saying, you know what man, I don’t want to make an out by hitting, by rolling over something. Let me go. I’m just going to throw something the other way and I got to double and I gotta base yet. Right. And hope my team, the fans are going nuts for it because it’s fast to play a little baseball. So as that comes back, as players realize I’m a dumb so-and-so for trying to yank everything to the first basement or the third baseman, I’m going to turn around and I’m going to go the other way. I’m going to get me on a pad, my average, I’m going to go get some, get on second base, I’m going to drive and run. There’ll be a team player. I’m tired of making outs. The more that happens, the more those more traditional profiles will come back of, of, of candy, play short. Can you play Saturday? Can you, can you catch? And that’s, that’s happening now. If you can’t play in those positions at the big league level, you’d have to move and if you have to move, you got to hit their base base. Left field, right field, second base. I’ll get a rate all of them. Oh and look around baseball. The teams that win and those positions have guys who can flat hit and hit for power. It’s not one or the other. It’s hit and hit for power. Right? Maybe varying degrees of that. But hidden here for power, there are cases where you have what’s called a secondary profile. Okay. And the secondary profile is, is a guy who was played says play left field. Um, but you know, his arm is just okay, it’s a 40 arm on a scale of two to eight forearm. Um, and the powers of three buddies and eight runner, right? It’s the seven defender, which you can be with a forearm. Did you take everything away? Right? And you’ve got six bat. So it’s a little upside down, but there’s a, so there’s a, a couple of tools in there that are top and tools that creates value as a, as a, as a lead off hitter or a two hitter or, um, who, who can, can go take throws, Ooh, balls away and left it. You know what I’m saying? There’s other ways to do it. They give you premium value to play a position instead of traditional hit, hit for power that would go with a left fielder. Okay. But all of those things come into play as far as where you get drafted, what your positioning is on the board. And, and what your future projection is. And so for people out there who are watching stats and people out there who are watching players that have these raw tools, um, and wondering maybe why a certain player goes here and a certain player doesn’t go there or how that split, all those things are still into play. And when you add the analytical component in it, we go back to your comment about competition, right? Who was he playing against? Who is he doing it against? How consistent is it? Um, and how familiar and comfortable are we with that player? And all those things tie together with your tools. So you had your five tools that are, that are, you know, raw and, and skill within them. Um, you have your lenses of how that’s evaluated. You have your six tool at your mental state and what your brain can do to help you achieve. What would you recall your ceiling? And that’s as high as you can go. And then you have the, uh, primary and secondary profiles that would dictate where you would sit on draftboard and your value to a club, which is truly how you get selected and how you get paid. And so that should, while can be very complex and I know people are going to have to probably listen to this a couple of times. It takes a long time to get, it takes a long time to get it and understand it. Um, that’s how you can develop into an evaluator and that’s how you can develop an understanding the draft. And if you’re a player, that’s how you can understand where you might fit.
Geoff Rottmayer: 34:31 Yeah, it does take a long time. You know, this is something that I’ve been kind of interested in the last three, four years trying to watch many guys and I still don’t have a clue a lot of their stuff. You know what I mean? And again, that’s just like the game of baseball, you know, there’s always something to learn. So there anyway, the, you know, for, for the people that are listening, you know, how many tools, you know, because not everybody, that five tool guy. So how many tools does a guy need to be able to capture your attention and spend some time scouting? Well, there’s not really a minimum.
Jeremy Booth: 35:07 Um, we can say is you can go back to that primary and secondary profile. Right? Um, and what w what I would say with that is that there’s also something, so you know this, again, this is getting a little advanced, but there’s also something called the three two rule. And that is if you take the, the positions on the field, the eight positions on the field, there’s five tools that go into every position, right? And they ranked in certain order. So we’ll go back to left field, right. Hit, hit for power. Um, you know, run defense, throw whatever your, your, your preferences on as an organization. Okay. But hitting hit for power are always the first two. If you have the first three tools out of any position, the other two tend to not matter. Catcher, for example, right? The last, uh, graded tool or last prioritized tool on a catcher’s foot speed. Nobody cares if the Catholic didn’t run, right? So if you’re putting that as part of his evaluation, yeah, I can help if he can do it. But to hurt him or opinion because he can’t isn’t, isn’t necessarily, you know, prudent, right? If you could throw, he can defend it. You can hit, which are the first three years pretty happy. See what I’m saying? So you want to kind of check those boxes when you’re putting in about where a guy’s going to be able to play with those primary tools. Now again, there’s other guys, like I said, we’re a secondary profiles and things that are maybe a little bit upside down, but give you the ability to see or have the ability for you to see they can execute and have value. But when you’re talking about the primary profile, that’s not really a minimum. It’s more of where do I play him and what are the tools that show me he can play. Now we’re players get into trouble is if they’re misfits. So guy’s got raw power, but he, you know, and he can run right. But you can’t play first base cause he bad defensively and he can’t or can’t play therapy’s bad defense. He doesn’t make enough contacts. Um, uh, you know, to project as a, as a run producer, cross diamond. And so he’s limited defensively. Uh, and it’s, it’s hit overpower or what, you know, there’s something in there that doesn’t make sense for a guy that we don’t have a place to put in. It doesn’t mean you won’t get drafted. This doesn’t mean where are you gonna put it. Cause at some point that’s going to catch up when he starts running in the guys who do have places to play, right. Who do fit those primary and secondary profiles. So, um, that’s, that’s the, the answer. Like I said, it takes a long time to get this, it, it takes years of seeing players and mentorship and understanding the analytical component and the profile component and the game play and how fast the game moves at different levels in the system, um, to achieve it. But you can get there. You get there.
Geoff Rottmayer: 37:40 Okay, cool. So that covers the position tools. Um, I think we did a pretty good job staying on topic. Um, the, the, let’s jump over to pitching. All right. Um, we talked a little bit about the arm. Um, is there anything you want to elaborate on, on the pitching five when it comes to the arm?
Jeremy Booth: 38:00 Not so much the arm, but more about the execution and more about the role and more about projection. And I can sum up pitching pretty easily. Okay. Um, when you’re looking at a picture you’re looking at um, body, arm action delivery, athleticism, same stuff you’re looking at as a position player. Only the arm action delivery have a little, uh, have more of a priority, right? Um, you want to see somebody who has innings in him. You want to see somebody who has obviously arm strength, but you want you to somebody who can command it has what I would call just a heavy baseball of all that has. Um, know a ton of people use it late life, but something that’s hard to lift. You don’t want to see that [inaudible] that we call light of the stuff to lift. You want to see players or pictures that have a secondary feel and can throw multiple pitches for strikes, um, with quality. And the reason why you want to do that is because all of those things in the varying degrees of ability to do them give you a role. If a guy has a really good arm, he’s probably going to get a shot. There’s no doctor, no denying them. Okay. But if he can’t throw his breaking ball for a strike and it’s a below average pitch or he has no protection, it’s going to limit his ability to a number for number one be starter number to have impact in a bolt pin roll. Because when he gets back to the bullpen, as soon as guys figure out that he’s only got one pitch, you’re just going to wait on that one pitch and the rest of it doesn’t matter. Right? So pitching really becomes about durability, role, longevity, execution and quality. And those are, it’s a way shorter explanation than, than position players because there’s, there’s, it’s really, it’s, it’s a box you can check pretty easily. They’re watching, got thrown in it, watch that thrown in and you kind of got a feel, you know, so that’s, that’s, that’s the fishing part.
Geoff Rottmayer: 39:45 So I had a question come in and this was a, a guy who has, um, a desire to be a professional scout one day. And he said, you know, he went out and watched a bunch of games in the spring and there were the kid that were throwing 90, 92, nine 30, top-down, 95, but he was kind of on them, chunk your side, body type, you know, so you didn’t have the idea of body, but he had the velocity, you’ll be able to get guys out. Um, he, he, he, he goes mad. You knew this kid was going to get drafted. A kid, he, he was something special and there would nothing, he, not a thing, not a single interest, you know. So can you kind of go over maybe some of the other pieces that did, gentlemen maybe should’ve walked while he would, you know, evaluating the kid?
Jeremy Booth: 40:34 Yeah, I mean, I, you know, I don’t know. I haven’t seen the guy, but is there a, is there a breaking ball? Is houses are more, is there a delivery there? I mean, there’s lots of guys who have been picked for pitchers at a pitch in the big leagues, right? If you’ve got, doesn’t necessarily mean anything. It just, it really is. The other factors within that 90 to 95 is great, but it’s a playable heavy. Um, is there a slider to go with it as you relieve, I mean, yeah. You know, there are so many, so much to unpack within what he, within that explanation, what I would say is, I think that’s a good example of arm strength isn’t enough. That’s what I would say. I’m stuck. There’s enough. That’s a good answer.
Geoff Rottmayer: 41:11 So, so I hope people are the, that are listening, you know, I hope you got to realize that there’s a lot to this than just the number. And then the staff, um, like, like Jeremy methane. So. All right, Jim, let’s cover one more topic. Let’s talk about, um, makeup. Um, uh, how do you, how do you evaluate makeup?
Jeremy Booth: 41:35 Sure. So, you know, makeup is, is resiliency, makeup is determination. Makeup is composure. Makeup as being a good teammate. Makeup is discipline. Makeup is, um, ability to handle, which goes back to compose your handle yourself in the big moments. Makeup is, um, character, which is a little bit different than on field makeup. That’s more off feel makeup. But I think they go hand in hand for me. Um, there’s plenty of guys who have been, you know, good teammates who don’t have great character, um, or doesn’t have good team and some good players don’t have great character, but it’s some point that characters may show up in the clubhouse and, and you know, while it takes all different kinds of, be part of a winning club, you know, people that get up can get along with other people and people that, um, you know, have that ability to have that just innate personality about them to take care of their business.
Jeremy Booth: 42:29 And do the right thing instead of trouble. Those, that’s all makeup. Right. Um, so you know, all that stuff kind of factors that, um, when you’re really talking about makeup though, baseball standpoint, you’re talking about on-field makeup. How did he carry himself? How his teammates respond to him? Um, leadership ability, um, understanding of self, uh, you know, winning type composure and makeup resilience games. The game will humble you and you taught those before. Um, there’s two types of people in baseball I know that’s, those that are humble and those that are about to be okay. And so, you know, it’s, it’s a situation that, uh, you know, if some people today, and it’s funny, I had an exchange on Twitter a couple of days ago or somebody was arguing against being humble. And if you’re arguing against having humility, uh, Europe set up for a big, a long road, it is a big planets. Okay. And there was always somebody out there who’s your equal or superior in some way. And it doesn’t make you inferior because that happens. But you know, I’m not a good cook. Okay. I’m trying to get cooked, but I’ve lived my life in hotels for 20 plus years and, and I’m not a really good cook. When I get home, I can cook a few things. There are people who are better clips. You make me an inferior human being. You know, I, I couldn’t run and there were people who were, who, Hulu one six one 62 doesn’t make me an inferior as human being. It just needs, you got accept there’s other people out there who are good at and you have to have some kind of respect for your fellow man and in some kind of respect for your, for different cultures and respect for, um, their evaluators and different components and good players. And if you don’t have that humility, it will come out a scare against instead of confidence and cockiness, which is okay, right? You gotta have confidence and you got to have some cockiness to be successful in a dog eat dog world and a dog eats on game or nothing can bother you and phase you. And that is makeup as well. But it doesn’t mean you have to be arrogant. Um, and I’ll dive into this for five seconds cause I don’t want to beat the kid up, but there’s a picture for Louisville. I’m gonna leave his name out of exhibiting those from talking about in college will series in the night. I’m struck a kid out through a great game to that point, struck a kid out, stare at him, which is whatever. But then it was screw started screaming profanities at him all over national TV. Yeah. That’s just not show me composure. I don’t care what they’re doing to you unless somebody comes at you. That doesn’t show me good on field makeup. It doesn’t now any hue in the moment, you guys scare each other. Man, that’s baseball. That’s sports. You know, you want to celebrate for striking them out and that type of big situation, CWS, fine to go. Where that kid went is, it’s just too far. I don’t know the kid personally. I don’t know the moment. I don’t know the situ. I don’t know all that so I’m not going to judge him. But I am going to say is that doesn’t show any humility and doesn’t show that he can handle those type of moments. And sure enough, the next day, next inning, he gives it up. Now look, it could’ve been a knife and it could’ve been a lot of pitches, could’ve been through expat execution, whatever the case is. But you don’t, that’s not hard of makeup, right? That’s part of everybody’s going to start rooting against you. Yeah. So I just want, I’m saying makeup. That’s what we’re talking about. We’re talking to all those things coming together to factoring to, uh, becoming a winning player and positive impact on the club. That’s makeup.
Geoff Rottmayer: 45:47 Awesome. So, you know, for the, for the people that are listening, uh, let ass a, and let me ask you one more question. Um, and you don’t have the elaborate on it. Um, we talked about that in great, in great depth on our last conversation though. You can cut that on that. Anyway, talk a little bit about, about skills. We’ve been talking about tool, talk about skills.
Jeremy Booth: 46:10 Well skills is his level of execution of all of all your tools, right? That that’s, you know, making the routine play or uh, making the, the, the, you know, the extra play or getting the balls you’re not supposed to or the ability to make consistent contact or the ability to execute your fast ball, um, to, to get some of the misses in and out of the zones. But the facial wouldn’t want to. Those are all skills, right? It’s the only basis basically on the skill. Um, you know, uh, making the plane the whole as a skill making the routine play is the skill, right? Driving the ball and the other driver, other ways you scale those are all skills. Um, the strength that comes from that. There’s tools, the separation is the ability to do it. And um, you know, those skills are ultimately what would advance you through the game once you have certain tool markers. And so, uh, you know, tools versus skills is always a, a conversation that’s had somewhere we started mistaking tools for skills and started calling Rob power a skill. And it’s not a tool. And some people somewhere that that flipped and it needs to go back through power production. How many times on the extra base hits you get is your skill. So, um, that’s the difference, right? It’s, it’s raw tool versus execution of that tool.
Geoff Rottmayer: 47:22 All right, I’ll ask them more. Jeremy. You know, man, it’s always great to have you on and that be great to hear from you. Learn from you though. I appreciate you coming on and helping our, our listeners. Hopefully we, uh, kind of cleared, uh, maybe some, some questions that they had.
Jeremy Booth: 47:40 Yeah, man, I appreciate it as always and look forward, you know, recorded the next time and keep doing what you’re doing. Thanks for having me back.